How California Lost its Mojo

The preferred story for California’s economy runs like this:

In the beginning there was prosperity.  It started with gold.  Then, agriculture thrived in California’s climate.  Movies and entertainment came along in the early 20th Century.  In the 1930s there was migration from the Dust Bowl.  California became an industrial powerhouse in World War II.  Defense, aerospace, the world’s best higher education system, theme parks, entertainment, and tech combined to drive California’s post-war expansion.

Then, in the evening of November 9th, 1989, the Berlin Wall came down.  On December 25, 1991, the Soviet Union was dissolved.  The Cold War was over.  America responded by cutting defense spending and called the savings the Peace Dividend.

California paid that peace dividend.  A huge portion of California’s military industrial complex was destroyed.  The aerospace industry was downsized, never to come back.  Hundreds of thousands of well-paying manufacturing and engineering jobs were lost.

The ever-resilient California bounced back though.  Tech, driven by an entrepreneurial culture and fed by California’s great universities drove California’s economy to new heights.

Then, there was the dot.com bust.  A mild national recession was much more painful for a California dependent on its tech sector.  Eventually California recovered.  California’s tech sector and climate, aided by a housing boom, restored California’s prosperity.

The housing boom was followed by a housing bust.  Again, California paid a high price, and unemployment skyrocketed to 30 percent above the national average.

Today, California is recovering.  Its tech sector is once again bringing prosperity to the state.  Furthermore, California’s green legislation is providing the motivation for a brave new future of economic growth and environmental virtue.

The story is true through the Peace Dividend.  California did pay a high price for the collapse of the Soviet Union.  California’s defense sector did begin a decline, and it never recovered.  But, defense recovered in other places, as the country expanded defense spending by 21 percent in the 2000s.  The United States has constantly been engaged in wars and conflicts for over a decade.  On a real-per-person basis, the United States is spending as much on defense as it has at any time since 1960. 

But when it comes to the present, the narrative falls down.  Defense has rebounded, but not in California.  California’s defense sector is small and declining, not because of a permanently smaller U.S. defense sector, but because of something about California.

California’s tech sector did boom after the collapse of California’s defense sector, but that doesn’t mean that California recovered.  In fact, much of California never recovered.  It’s the aggregation problem. 

The 1990s’ recovery was largely a Bay Area recovery.  Los Angeles hardly saw any uptick in employment.  Here is a chart comparing Los Angeles County’s jobs growth rate with the San Jose Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA): 

San Jose probably had California’s fastest growing job market in the 1990s.  Los Angeles was not the states slowest.  Still, the differences are striking.

A few years ago, a couple of my graduate students looked at California data from 1990 through 1999.  They divided California into two regions, the Bay Area and everywhere else.  The Bay Area was defined as Sonoma, Marin, Napa, Solano, Contra Costa, Alameda, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, San Mateo, and San Francisco counties.  Using seven indicators of economic growth, they performed relatively simple statistical tests to see if the two geographies experienced similar economies.  The indicators were employment, wages, home prices, bank deposits, population growth, construction permits, and household income.

By every measure except population growth, the Bay Area outperformed the rest of the state.  The exception was probably due to commuters to the Bay Area, given that region’s exceptionally high housing prices. 

Some economists will tell you that California saw faster-than-national job growth from the mid 1990s until the great recession.  This is another aggregation problem.  The claim is technically true, but only in the sense that California had a higher proportion of the nation’s jobs in 2007 than it did in 1995.  If you look at annual data, you will see that California’s share of the nation’s jobs only grew from 1995 through 2002.  Since then, California’s share of United States jobs resumed its decline:

In reality, California never recovered from the dot.com bust.  California, perhaps the best place on the planet to live, couldn’t keep up in a housing boom.  Something was wrong.

California had lost its mojo. 

Opportunity is now greater outside California than inside California.  For almost 150 years, California was as widely known for its opportunity as it was for its sunshine.  The combination was like a drug.  George Stoneman, an army officer destined to become California’s 15th governor, spoke for millions when he said "I will embrace the first opportunity to get to California and it is altogether probable that when once there I shall never again leave it." 

They did come to California, and they made an amazing place.  Opportunity-driven migrants are different than other people.  They take big risks to leave everything they know for an uncertain future in a new place.  They are confident, bold, and brash.   California became just as confident, bold, and brash.  The Anglo-American novelist Taylor Caldwell spoke the truth when she said "If they can’t do it in California, it can’t be done anywhere."

That was then.  Today, California can’t even rebuild an old Hotel.

The Miramar Hotel is a partially-demolished eyesore beside the 101 Freeway in Montecito, just south of Santa Barbara.  The Hotel’s initial structure was built in 1889.  Over the years, it was expanded to a 29 structure luxury hotel and resort.  In September 2000 it was closed for renovations which were expected to take 18 months.  That was when the fighting started.  Community groups, neighbors, and governments all had their own idea of what the Miramar should be.  Two owners later, and after millions of dollars, the future to the Miramar is still uncertain.

The Miramar Hotel is a case study of what is wrong with post-industrial California, precisely because it should have been easy, and because it is not unique.  Everything is hard to do in California.  The state that once moved rivers of water hundreds of miles across deserts and over or through mountain ranges can’t rebuild a hotel.

The situation will get worse.  California has become the place people are leaving.  The following chart shows that for 20 years more people have left California for other states than came to California from other states:

California’s population is still increasing because of births and international immigration. 

Two decades of negative domestic migration has taken its toll.  Millions of risk-taking, confident, bold, and brash people have left California.  They took California’s mojo with them.

That seems pretty clear when you look at some statistics:  California’s unemployment is way above the national average.  With only about 12 percent of the nation’s population, California has over 30 percent of the nation’s welfare recipients.  San Bernardino has the nation’s second highest poverty rate among cities over 200,000.

Sometimes though, aggregated data can hide California’s weakness, and some, representing the always-present constituency for the status quo, use these data to deny that California’s future is any less golden. 

Most recently, those representing the constituency for the status quo have used California’s aggregated jobs data to argue that all is well in California.  They argue that California’s tech sector is leading California to a new golden future.

Year-over-year data confirm that, through August 2012, California gained jobs at a faster pace than the United States.  Once again, though, that growth is largely confined to one industry and one geography.  California’s tech sector is recovering, and amidst a generally weak recovery, it appears strong enough to generate pretty impressive aggregated results.  If we disaggregate California’s data, we will find that there is not just one California.  There is a rich and mostly coastal California, with a few smaller inland counties on the San Francisco-Lake Tahoe corridor.  Another California is very poor and mostly inland.

Here’s a list of California’s poorest counties by poverty rate:

County

Poverty Rate

Child Poverty Rate

Rank

Del Norte

23.5

30.6

3

Fresno

26.8

38.2

1

Imperial

22.3

31.8

6

Kern

21.4

30.3

10

Kings

22.5

29.7

5

Madera

21.7

31.7

8

Merced

23.1

31.4

4

Modoc

21.9

32.5

7

Siskiyou

21.5

30.7

9

Tulare

33.6

33.6

2

Here’s a list of California richest counties by poverty rate:

County

Poverty Rate

Child Poverty Rate

Rank

Calaveras

11.1

18.3

10

Contra Costa

9.3

12.7

4

El Dorado

9.4

11.6

5

Marin

9.2

10.9

3

Mono

10.8

15

8

Napa

10.7

14.7

7

Placer

9.1

10.7

2

San Mateo

7

8.5

1

Santa Clara

10.6

13.3

6

Ventura

11

15.3

9

There are some big differences here.  The percentage of Fresno’s children living in poverty is four and half times the percentage of San Mateo children living in poverty.  In fact, the data for California’s poorest counties looks like third-world data.

When disaggregated, the job-growth data shows the same story.  Through 2012’s second quarter, jobs in the San Jose MSA were up 3.6 percent on a year-over-year basis.  In Los Angeles, jobs were up only 1.1 percent, while in Sacramento they were up only 0.6 percent.  For comparison, U.S. jobs were up about 1.3 percent for the same time period.

You can perform this analysis for all types of data.  When the data are disaggregated, the story is always the same.  It’s telling us that California needs to get its mojo back, and the current tech boom is likely not to be enough for its recovery.

Bill Watkins is a professor at California Lutheran University and runs the Center for Economic Research and Forecasting, which can be found at clucerf.org.

Unemployment photo by BigStockPhoto.com.

Comments

40 responses to “How California Lost its Mojo”

  1. rich_b Avatar
    rich_b

    The MOJO started to go starting in the 1980’s when the cost of living exploded. Middle to upper middle class jobs do not ensure home ownership anymore, its too expensive. When you do not own your own home that may encourage leaving (and makes it easier)to somewhere where you can. Adding all the other nonsense over the last thirty years has taken a huge toll, making Texas and other places the new California.

    1. PhilBest Avatar
      PhilBest

      Absolutely correct, rich.

      I am forever complaining about the “aggregation problem” in the context that reams and reams of analysis is getting written about “The US economy” and “The US housing market” and so on – when in fact there are disparities between States, in some economic factors, that resemble the difference between Germany and Spain – and we would not be impressed with analysis of “the EU” that did not make these distinctions.

      Good for Bill Watkins for spotting that there is an “aggregation problem” within California itself. “Exclusion” caused by high housing prices is one obvious reason. California can be expected to track the example set by Britain, with its 60 years of strict growth constraint urban planning causing worse and worse “exclusion”. All attributes of housing are rationed by income. When the price of raw land is inflated literally thousands of percent, people on lower incomes end up having to sacrifice on all attributes of housing, not just “space”. The sacrifice made in “location”, for example, results in the lowest income people being clustered the greatest distance away from employment opportunities.

      I realise that in some historic circumstances low income people have frequently been trapped in failing inner cities, but there is a trend to the very opposite situation once there has been decades of renewal and urban evolution under planning-induced housing price inflation. Other attributes of housing that the lowest income people end up sacrificing besides “space” and “location”, is age, condition, quality, and amenities. It is no surprise that some medical studies are starting to suggest that the strong link between lower incomes and poor health outcomes, is the housing that people on lower incomes are forced by necessity, to live in. The higher housing costs are, the worse this will be.

      Another factor that will strongly affect long term economic performance, is the amount of discretionary income circulating in the local economy, after the costs of housing have been paid.

      Look at the graph on page 5, “Discretionary Incomes”, in this study:

      http://www.houston.org/economic-development/joel-kotkin/pdf/KotkinAppendices%20Policy%20Framework%20with%20table.pdf

      Local economies with very high housing costs will have a high percentage of their local income being siphoned off by the mortgage finance sector, which does not necessarily re-circulate this money back into the local economy in the form of discretionary income, in fact a lot of it ends up in places like Manhattan, which is nice for Manhattan. No wonder Ryan Avent recently spotted that trickle-down job creation (from each new high-tech, high-income job) is much greater in low-housing-cost cities than in high-housing cost ones.

      Some of the advocates of urban growth containment will argue that higher housing costs will be compensated for by reduced transport costs. This is a repulsive lie, given the reality described above about the households choices of attributes of housing INCLUDING LOCATION, when the prices are inflated. Even back in 1973, Peter Hall et al in the 2 volume report “The Containment of Urban England”, noted that lower income people and first home buyers were being forced into longer and longer commutes as the result of Britain’s planning system and inflated housing costs. Certainly today it is easily observable in the data, that Britain’s cities have the longest average trip-to-work times in the OECD (with the possible exception of Japan). So it is a question whether there is any gain AT ALL from all the pain imposed by the “growth containment” ideology.

      And economic productivity has also been found to be tens of percentage points lower as a result of the planning system. This is due to congestion, far-too-small workplaces, and an ABSENCE of opportunities for agglomerations to be formed by new participants in most industry types. The insistence on “contiguity” of urban growth results in a lack of spare land at locations where such agglomerations would have formed, and in any case the sheer cost of land is prohibitive to many potential new entrants.

  2. richardsson Avatar
    richardsson

    It was when then Congressman Esteban Torres voted against the B-2 bomber program I knew that the California economy was doomed. Torres was a respected member of the political establishment and a dunce when it came to representing his district. The Northrop plant in his district was an economic magnet for the area. Northrop eventually pulled up stakes and moved to Northern Virginia. No more contracts for you, California. Those were jobs with a median income of $70,000 a year now replaced by a shopping center anchored by a Walmart with a part time minimum wage workforce. This was also part of the environmentalist war on manufacturing that ended everything from automobiles to surfboards. The decline of the California economy hasn’t caught up with the coastal areas yet, but it will.

  3. jjohnjj Avatar
    jjohnjj

    But California’s economy must also be examined in a global context. I suspect that we have lost many more jobs to China and Mexico than to Texas.

    The stats I’ve seen suggest that while corporate headquarters (like Northrop-Grumman) have decamped to more convenient time zones, in-state employment by out-of-state corporations had kept things stable up until 2008. California was still the top recipient of Pentagon dollars in 2004, and fourteenth per-capita (www.statemaster.com).

    Our folly was to rely so heavily on construction to provide new jobs. But we weren’t the only ones to fall victim to the flood of cheap credit unleashed by Alan Greenspan in 2002.

    The Miramar Hotel is an interesting case, but it’s not iconic. A decade before the new owners began wrangling with its wealthy neighbors, a large beachfront hotel was constructed 20 miles to the south, in Oxnard. A new coastal resort opened 20 miles to the north just a couple of years after the Miramar’s troubles began.

    Yes, we have zoning and environmental regulations in California, but that’s not why we’ve lost our mojo. It’s just the price we pay for an expanding population. When the Miramar was first built, there were 1.4 million people living in the state. By the time it closed, there were 33 million of us.

    California needs good-paying, secure manufacturing jobs… but I’m afraid that has much more to do with national policy than state politics.

  4. brockbrigham Avatar
    brockbrigham

    You can develop a career as a writer for publications on economics. Current trends in economics blend information technology and businesses to for the e-Commerce field. Many economists work in the development, research and financial management as well as marketing of e-businesses.
    assurance temporaire

    1. aldrichalexander18 Avatar
      aldrichalexander18

      The subject matter of economics has been divided into two parts: microeconomics and macroeconomics. In Microeconomics we study the economic behavour of an individual, firm or industry in the national economy.création site internet toulouse

    2. bevisblaine Avatar
      bevisblaine

      as far as the need to study economics is concerned, there are several factors that are associated with this study and are basically understood and managed due to this study. For instance the study of resources and other related factors help the authorities and the people understand the scarcity of the available resources and the need to use them efficiently.
      assurance voiture sans permis

  5. siddhant89 Avatar
    siddhant89

    is it about the career we are talking about here!!! well i dont think so anyways i would like to tell you about how to buy vcc

    1. ranayjacobs Avatar
      ranayjacobs

      The indicators were employment, wages, home prices, bank deposits, population growth, construction permits, and household income. cell phone spy software cell phone listening

      1. jacknicholson Avatar
        jacknicholson

        Some optimistic economists suggest that it is possible to de-couple economic growth from the use of natural capital. This would be more magical than alchemy if they can make something out of nothing. Litz Wire

  6. babygames8 Avatar
    babygames8

    Want to make your children more beautiful? Just search for thegirls dress up Games,you will find millions and millions of model copies to choose from as many parents or girls would have posted the same to help you out.even winx can help you ,too,those girls wear different clothes letting your child learn.

  7. babygames8 Avatar
    babygames8

    Internet is a tool developed to help learn cooking pizza games through online gaming. They are especially oriented to make children eat all those cuisines which they hate to even look at otherwise and for thoses children who like magic Games can surfing internet,too!

  8. babygames8 Avatar
    babygames8

    One of the most amazing things about the online food games is that they cost you nothing at all, also no matter how many times you wish to play a shopping games, you can simply get online and play it without worrying about money.Also if you don’t know how to take care your baby as a young mother, you can play baby games online,too!

  9. Adam963 Avatar
    Adam963

    Opportunity-driven migrants are different than other people. They take big risks to leave everything they know for an uncertain future in a new place. Supreme Beanie
    Supreme Hoodie

  10. MALINGA Avatar
    MALINGA

    Very Simple and clear explanation of issues is given and it is open for everyone. JavaScript SubString, Saugus Garage Garage Door Repair JavaScript Substr What is JavaScript JavaScript Function javascript functions JavaScript Variables JavaScript Replace JavaScript Prototype.

    1. adleyadler81 Avatar
      adleyadler81

      it is difficult to effectively tackle different types of economics essays. With the approach in this guide, evaluations can be tackled almost systematically which means that less thinking time is required, leaving more precious writing time.
      chambres d’hote en provence

      1. abessagar4u Avatar
        abessagar4u

        Glad to visit your blog, I seem to be forward to more good articles and I believe we all love to thank so many good articles, blog to share with us. serwis laptopów
        K Kumar

  11. aishavax Avatar
    aishavax

    You can develop a career as a writer for publications on economics. Current trends in economics blend information technology and businesses to for the e-Commerce field. Many economists work in the development, research and financial management as well as marketing of e-businesses.
    Chhota Bheem

    1. assiasalikhowa158 Avatar
      assiasalikhowa158

      An unhealthy economy is one in which money is not circulating enough. How to cure an unhealthy economy is a question for a future post. I have written two followup articles examining the various ways governments and central banks may respond to economic downturns. foundation repair

    2. niraj1 Avatar
      niraj1

      social bookmarking sites list A good informative post that you have shared and thankful your work for sharing the information. Got some appealing information and would like to give it a try.

  12. devinediva200 Avatar
    devinediva200

    One that interest me to read is the history of some other countries. Why? It is because I got to know how does that country grow, where and when did it start and what is their standing before they got the reach the highest or low level of economy. In-short information and some facts triggers me to read such article. Just like this. Thank you for sharing this with us. – buying twitter follower
    how to increase twitter followers

      1. abessagar4u Avatar
        abessagar4u

        The details given for the content is too much enough to understatnd more regard that.
        office supplies dealer

  13. niraj1 Avatar
    niraj1

    buyone-waybackprlinks | gethigh-prlinks | getoneway-backlinks | highpage-ranklinkbuilding | highpr-linkseo | oneway linkbuilders Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.It’s late finding this act. At least, it’s a thing to be familiar with that there are such events exist.I agree with your Blog and I will be back to inspect it more in the future so please keep up your act.This post is very simple to read and appreciate without leaving any details out. Great work! You completed certain reliable points there. I did a search on the subject and found nearly all persons will agree with your blog.

  14. Gujjar Avatar
    Gujjar

    You can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something – your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.
    case study for mba

  15. niraj1 Avatar
    niraj1

    pageranklink | seoforgoogle | buy-backlinks | buy-text-links | healthusadirectory | homewebdirectory A good informative post that you have shared and thankful your work for sharing the information. Got some appealing information and would like to give it a try. Applaud your work and keep sharing your information.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.

    1. satish30 Avatar
      satish30

      Once in the arcades, an additional payment will be used, which requires no transfer of funds on the account. oneway-linkingservice Second, there are casinos which have a range of slot machines. page rank backlinks that are free, which are then no additional payment. socialbookmarkings 2013 is often but no money can be won. Frequently casinos already give an additional. social bookmarking services payment for the registration and transfer of this a little later on the user account. buy backlinks This then gives each of the Outlook to test a wide range of slot machines, gameswebdir logo the selection of slot machines has increased immensely.

  16. niraj1 Avatar
    niraj1

    bookswebdirectory| businesswebsdirectory| communicationswebdirectory | computerswebdirectory I am a new user of this site so here i saw multiple articles and posts posted by this site,I curious more interest in some of them hope you will give more information on this topics in your next articles.Glad to chat your blog, I seem to be forward to more reliable articles and I think we all wish to thank so many good articles, blog to share with us.Glad to chat your blog, I seem to be forward to more reliable articles and I think we all wish to thank so many good articles, blog to share with us. I will really appreciate the writer’s choice for choosing this excellent article appropriate to my matter.Here is deep description about the article matter which helped me more.

  17. niraj1 Avatar
    niraj1

    social bookmarking sites list | high pr social bookmarking sites A good informative post that you have shared and thankful your work for sharing the information. Got some appealing information and would like to give it a try. Applaud your work and keep sharing your information.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.Really impressed! Everything is very open and very clear clarification of issues. It contains truly facts. Your website is very valuable. Thanks for sharing.

    1. satish30 Avatar
      satish30

      It’s the amusement, what might be absolutely normally in Hollywood pictures, buck leupwa sequence or comparative perception. seattle php A player tosses two ivories on a table furnished with markers, v-chernomorec 2013 behind him is a cheering swarm and every litter gives more slanted gathering of people in happiness. pflueger28ezloan logo Sun full of activity it is in all actuality however too seldomly, eyeof-berlin and no doubt even less in a connected club, however CCrabsviel offers fun and energy, snapperzfunlafayette 2013 and may in any case with a book of ra connected play unhindered without enlistment liberate play keep up demo.

  18. Gujjar Avatar
    Gujjar

    These technologies can make life easier, can let us touch people we might not otherwise. You may have a child with a birth defect and be able to get in touch with other parents and support groups, get medical information, the latest experimental drugs. These things can profoundly influence life. I’m not downplaying that.
    phd defense

  19. MALINGA Avatar
    MALINGA

    high-prlin-kbuilders
    back-link-service
    backlinks-seo
    buy-backlinks
    high page rank link
    oneway-links-building

    Please add reliable good information that would help others in such good way.This post is exactly what I am curious. we need some more good information.

  20. praveen Avatar
    praveen

    I was so lucky to visit this site I really want to recommend this to everyone cause there no doubt about its content I really love this one thanks for sharing this!I hope that I can see new interesting topics I am looking forward to that Creating an unfunded PhD tier could have dire consequences for the accessibility and diversity of the graduate school, never mind the collegial atmosphere within and between departments. panda-white-hat-seo | seo-web-design-delhi | seo-pandatips | seo-panda-tricks | learn2-backlinks-forseo I really loved reading your blog. It was very well authored and easy to understand. I am happy to find your distinguished way of writing the post. Now you make it easy for me to understand and implement the concept. Thank you for the post.

  21. Gujjar Avatar
    Gujjar

    Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something – your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.
    write my thesis for me

  22. MALINGA Avatar
    MALINGA

    http://www.artswebdirectory.com | http://www.autosmobiledirectory.com By reminding us that we’re all in it together and exposing the far right’s attempts to divide and conquer, he is helping to ensure that the machine is used for good, not evil.

  23. Ashton Avatar
    Ashton

    I am happy to find your distinguished way of writing the post. Now you make it easy for me to understand and implement the concept. I really loved reading your blog. http://www.delhiwebsitedesigningbusiness.com It was very well authored and easy to undertand.Nice blog having nice information. some times we ignore this sort of things & also suffer a lot as well.

  24. Taulsharps Avatar
    Taulsharps

    Quite exciting on pacing of your website and that i am very much many thanks to this website and wonderful information is proving for me. That data it is possible to utilize during the job time casino barcelona. I used to be definitely liked this website and terrific supporter of this web-site. Which is strategy to visit this web-site every day this web-site is delivering the information is quite awesome geant casino. I’m viewing this sight just after I am really appreciated for this web site and funky presentation is obvious on this site casino.

  25. Taulsharps Avatar
    Taulsharps

    I concur that it’s straightforward to get caught up later on geant casino. I had seriously fascinating information and facts is noticeable within this weblog and also the good solution is visible on this blog site casino. Just several things are adding on this web-site and terrific information and facts is visible during this web site casino de. Transferring can be pretty fantastic just one click on with in portion of seconds it will open the website page. I’m a great deal thanks to this website and good perception is seen within this weblog.

  26. npapperttshonta Avatar
    npapperttshonta

    To be able to register and http://goo.gl/bQyxX gamble at a casino online you need to http://goo.gl/Q8Ku6 be above the age of 18 years, find a legal and regulated http://goo.gl/T82Vm casino and get registered.

    1. dennishobson Avatar
      dennishobson

      Youre so cool! I dont suppose Ive read anything like this before. So nice to find somebody with some original madeira plastica thoughts on this subject. hyundai hb20Srealy thank you for starting this up. this allpex website is something that is needed on the web, someone with a little originality. useful job for bringing something new to the internet!